Breaking the Silence: Men’s Mental Health Matters
June 3, 2025 | Episode 40
Producer’s Note: The following is an AI-generated transcript of The Wellness Conversation, an OhioHealth Podcast
SPEAKERS: Lindsey Gordon, Dr. Eric Layne, Marcus Thorpe
Olivia Weiss 0:00
Thanks for tuning in to The Wellness Conversation. This episode includes discussions around mental health challenges, including mentions of suicide, which may be difficult for some listeners. If you or someone you know is experiencing a mental health crisis, please call 911, or call or text the suicide and crisis Lifeline at 988, for free. 24/7 support you.
Marcus Thorpe 0:34
Welcome to The Wellness Conversation an OhioHealth Podcast. I'm Marcus Thorpe, if you haven't and you like this kind of health and wellness content. We encourage you to like favorite rate and subscribe to this podcast. It helps us grow and allows you to never miss an episode. Also look for our content on NBC four, Columbus and NBC four. I.com and
Lindsey Gordon 0:52
I'm Lindsey Gordon. Thanks for listening. This topic is overlooked, but incredibly important. We're talking about men's mental health.
Marcus Thorpe 1:01
We thought long and hard on this topic. Father's Day is this month. We know we have a high number of men listening, but even more women listening too. So we think this is a great conversation starter that we all should be having. It is that important? And joining us to break everything down is Dr. Eric Layne. He's a psychiatrist with OhioHealth. Dr. Layne, it's good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
Dr. Eric Layne 1:21
Hey, thanks for inviting me.
Lindsey Gordon 1:22
Dr. Layne, let's start with this. Why is men's mental health such an important topic for me? I'm asking this question from the stance of being a wife and trying to support my husband and then also a mom of a son. I'm growing and raising a young boy, and so I want his foundation to be strong in this way and support him as best I can. So why is this topic so important?
Dr. Layne 1:45
Well, it's good point, and I'll admit I had some reservations when I was first asked to talk on this topic, because anything we say about men's mental health, I wouldn't want that to minimize women's mental health, child and adolescent mental health. Everyone deserves to live free of emotional suffering. But I think we're having this conversation because there are many men, especially in our culture, who grew up with negative messages about their emotions. I worked for many years in a fairly rural part of Ohio, where I often got the message from men that growing up, they were told that their emotions were invalid, that they were weak for having feelings of sadness or anxiety. And they really learned the message, and it stuck with them that to express those emotions risks judgment or criticism or backlash. And so I think that it is important, because if those channels are cut off and those emotions are not able to be expressed and addressed, they're going to be addressed some way, and that can include things like self destructive coping strategies, and as you mentioned, affecting the lives of the people around those men, their Families, coworkers and others.
Marcus Thorpe 3:01
We've seen a lot of studies out there that show that men are less likely to receive treatment for mental health compared to women. Men have higher rates of suicide in some of those studies. So we know that there's targeted needs for mental health. Some of those things really seem like red flags to me. As a psychiatrist, do those look like red flags to you?
Dr. Layne
Absolutely. You know, as I kind of mentioned, we're talking about people who often grow up in situations in which they never really develop the skill of reflecting inward, identifying their feelings and their thoughts and emotions, developing a language that they can use to express those emotions, communicating them to others, and that's a channel that's important to have open, and when that channel is closed off early and throughout someone's life, again, we have to kind of think of the teapot analogy. The steam is going to build up and it's going to come out somewhere, and in many people, that arises in atypical symptoms, chronic fatigue, chronic pain, headaches, stomach problems, cognitive issues like memory and focus and productivity. Problems, panic attacks. People present to emergency departments all the time with thinking they're having a heart attack, you know, thinking they're having a stroke, but really it is these emotions that we're not addressing. And as you kind of pointed out, this generates a sense of helplessness and hopelessness, and those are the ingredients that lead to thoughts of suicide.
Lindsey
What are the stigmas that we need to address?
Dr. Layne 4:42
Well, as I mentioned, you know, a lot of times it's this idea that having feelings is somehow wrong. Now, as a psychiatrist, my job is to help treat people when their emotions, their depression, their anxiety, their anger, has reached a severe level. And it's causing impairment. But emotions are part of being a human being. They're part of our homeostasis system, our balancing system. So if you think about someone who is deprived of water, their brain is going to send a signal that they need to drink. If they drink too much, they'll get the signal that they're sick and they need to stop. The same is true of things like temperature or nutrients. And so in a way, our emotions are signals that are often telling us something important. And so if those signals are pathologized at an early age and again, create this sense of fear of judgment or criticism that's gonna push people away from the care that they need. And very often, I am the first mental health professional that someone meets. And so I've heard a lot of fears about mental health treatment. You know, people will sometimes say to me things like, I was afraid you were gonna lock me in a hospital. I was afraid you were gonna shoot me up with drugs and make me a zombie. I was afraid you were going to put me in a straight jacket. You know, I hear these things, and of course, those are false beliefs, but those are the kinds of things that, unless we can anticipate and dispel, they're going to push people away from the care they need.
Marcus Thorpe 6:18
On a personal note, I think back about three or four years ago, I have two kids. They're now 14 and 12, but, you know, at the time, I had a nine year old, and I we called him down for dinner, and he didn't answer. And I was like, This is so weird. So I went upstairs, and he was turned on his side, and I didn't know what was wrong with him, but he was non responsive, and so I had to take him out do chest compressions, all the kind of things that you have to do. And it turned out that he was having a seizure, and he has epilepsy, but, you know, had no idea. And then I think about the times after that, and I couldn't handle just general life, like everything felt like an emergency, like no matter what it was, the smallest thing with my kids, and I knew something was terribly wrong. I mean, I was I'm the biggest glass half full person. I'm full of energy, and I had no energy, and everything was dark and gloomy. And I had never talked to a mental health professional ever. And so I connected with somebody at OhioHealth, Dr spanda, who's actually been on the podcast before, and also a counselor with behavioral health outpatient at OhioHealth. And I No kidding, those two saved my life. And I'm on medication, and the PTSD has kind of dwindled down, but I wonder how many people get to that point and just feel completely stuck and scared and don't know what to do, and everything is so frontal lobe at that point, Dr. Layne, where everything feels like an emergency, like the biggest thing in your life, when really it's not.
Dr. Layne 7:46
That's right. Our bodies are built to detect danger, and you know, unfortunately, if you live a human life, you're exposed to traumas. And not all of those turn necessarily into PTSD, but they do become part of the script that our brain uses to predict what's likely to happen next to us. And you know, I always want to point out that part of what causes this stigma and causes a movement away from getting help is this fear of being vulnerable. And just what you explained just now is a great example of being willing to describe your experiences, because we always fear judgment or criticism, but what we generally get is relief from someone to see that someone else has been there, someone else feels that way, and that's often what many of these men and Of course, as I said, women and children as well need to hear Yeah.
Lindsey 8:44
Marcus, how did you know that you needed to get help?
Marcus Thorpe 8:47
It was impacting my daily life.
Lindsey
Was it like? Michaela, did someone in your life say, Hey, this is something a little more serious?
Marcus Thorpe 8:54
Yeah. I mean, my wife and I were going through some challenging times, you know, scared of what's going to happen with your kid? Is he going to be okay? Then you start not paying attention to your marriage, and you have this full time job that asks a lot of you. And so my friends noticed I was pulling back. My family obviously noticed that something was wrong. And so it was having that kind of support system and group that was like, hey, something's going on, and you need to go. But then I actually had to take that step. Right? They would tell me, I would do that, but I'd be like, Oh, I don't know. And until I did, I I would have continued down that spiral. And who knows. I mean, I never felt like that, ever in my entire life. It was really scary.
Lindsey 9:34
I know I think you're so brave to share that, and hopefully it helps someone listening. Dr. Layne, does Marcus a story make you think about how often it happens, where maybe people go too long before asking for help, or maybe they don't ask for help at all, and they just assume this is who I am. This is this is how it has to be tough,
Dr. Layne 9:53
definitely. You know, so much of that is dictated by our beliefs. Like you said, you know, if you can kind of. To come to identify with your depression, to feel like I am a depressed person. These can cause barriers to treatment. And you know, as I kind of pointed out with a teapot analogy, these things are going to surface one way or another. And as you kind of mentioned, they can begin to affect your relationships, your productivity. And those things only serve to put more gasoline on the fire of your fear and anxiety about where this is headed. Having worked for many years on an inpatient psychiatric unit, a lot of times, I'm meeting people there who are having their first interaction with mental health because they have put off the treatment so long that it's reached a crisis level. It's very rare that someone has to be hospitalized, but when it reaches a point where someone is no longer safe, then that's an emergency, just like a stroke or a heart attack. I
Marcus Thorpe 10:53
love that there's conversations that are happening, and some of those stigmas have been broken down. You know, back in when I was growing up, you know, as a teenager in the 80s, or, you know, set 980s, and 90s. I think to myself, we never would have had these conversations. It was such a, I don't know, a scarlet letter of some sort, that if you had some mental health problems that, oh my gosh, you're gonna go talk to somebody about that. I have a really great friend group who, you know, we go beyond just the Hey, how are you right? Like our friend group really wants to know how you're truly doing, just not superficially. So what signs or symptoms do you think people can look out for that maybe says to them, maybe I need to ask or dig a little deeper with the person that I care so much about.
Dr. Layne 11:38
Well, like I said before, it is not uncommon, especially if somebody is kind of closed off to identifying and expressing these feelings that they're going to manifest in sometimes atypical ways. For instance, I often meet people who are referred to me by a neurologist. Maybe they presented with memory problems physical sensations like numbness or tingling or arms or legs not working correctly. And then you go through the $1,000 workup, and things come back normal. And sometimes at that point, suggested, hey, maybe you talk to a therapist or a psychiatrist and see if there's something going on under there. And then, of course, there are more classic symptoms, depression and anxiety have this way of getting us to behave in ways that only make them worse. They cause us to withdraw and isolate, pull away from the people who support us to not eat or sleep as well. And so you know, when you see people who are not enjoying the things that they used to enjoy, not socializing the way that they used to, more Surly and irritable and reactive, and even things like frequent ER visits or doctor visits that are not turning up explanations for why they're feeling so bad, these can certainly be signs that maybe there's more going on. The brain and the body are helplessly interconnected.
Lindsey 13:04
How effective do you think is virtual therapy? I know for a lot of people, it's like an entry point, because it's a little bit less, you know, you're not sitting in the room with somebody, you're in the comfort of your own environment, and you're, you know, you could close a laptop if you need to. But how effective is that? Like? Is that a good thing to suggest for someone? A lot of workplaces offer it now as part of their, you know, employee benefits packages. So should we be utilizing that?
Dr. Layne
My first interaction with virtual treatment was at the start of COVID. I hadn't really had much experience with that. Since then, it's been a really helpful tool. I think, like you said, it can create a little bit of a buffer so that people don't feel so vulnerable and it's not quite as intimate other people don't feel like they get much out of that they really want to be in contact with another person. But I think the more options we have on the menu, the better. So virtual therapy is certainly an option. It gives people access who might geographically not have access to as many options. And frankly, even though there are some pros and cons with things like AI, I've met a number of patients who have interacted with chat bots or AI programs on their phone that they can ask questions like, What do I do about my anger? How do I control my worry? And they get, actually, sometimes very helpful feedback they can carry on a conversation and not feel vulnerable by being with another person. So sometimes that can at least be a stepping stone toward getting more help. We always
Marcus Thorpe 14:43
encourage people to take those steps, to find the right fit for you with, like a primary care physician, right sometimes you'll go see a PCP for a while and you don't hit it off, or something's missing, and so maybe you go find another one. Is it the same within, like the mental health space and psychiatry? Sometimes you'll. Go to a psychiatrist for a while. You give it a chance, you realize this isn't what I'm looking for. Maybe I need to try somebody else. What do you think about that idea of kind of shopping around for your best fit? It
Dr. Layne 15:11
is true. I would say it's more true of someone like a psychotherapist, necessarily, than a psychiatrist. Obviously, you want to feel comfortable with your psychiatrist, but as a medical doctor, I spend less of my time with patients talking about the intimacies of their lives and their childhood, and I don't get as much time face to face with patients, so my job ends up being focused a bit more on identifying symptoms diagnoses and using things like medicines and other interventions to help. So while I certainly want my patients to feel comfortable, with me, I think it's even more important to feel a connection and sense of safety with someone like a psychotherapist, where you might spend hour long sessions every week with them. There are a lot of different therapists out there with different letters after their names, different kinds of training, but what's most important is feeling connected with them, feeling heard by them. You know, it's not your friend, it's not an intimate relationship, but it's a safe, neutral place of just unconditional, positive support. And I often say that even if you're surrounded by friends, family, people that you love and trust, it's not always easy to talk about these things with them. Sometimes we worry about burdening them or worrying them, or we worry about being judged by them or criticized by them, and so having somebody just separate from all of that can be very helpful.
Marcus Thorpe 16:36
That was the perfect fit for me, was having my psychiatrist, but then also having somebody in kind of the social work space that I could sit and have those longer, drawn out conversations where we got to the root of exactly what's going on, and the marriage between those groups really helped me so much as I kind of walked that phase of my life. So that was really nice. I very
Dr. Layne 16:58
often say that trying to treat these symptoms by going to a psychiatrist, but not a therapist, is kind of like trying to lose weight by dieting and not exercising. You're really only covering half the bases. Yeah.
Lindsey 17:08
Well, that's gonna stick with me. What are some ways that a support person, whether it's a friend, a spouse, a parent, what's some easy language to use, like, how what's like a good starting point to have this conversation, right? Because you could be sitting there and observing and notice something's wrong, and then it takes courage to speak up and be like, Hey, I noticed something's different. And sometimes these conversations are hard to have, especially when you really love the person you're confronting. And I hate to use that word, but it's, I can't really think of another option at this point. But what language could I use to start that conversation?
Dr. Layne 17:49
Well, as we kind of talked about, if somebody is already a bit closed off to their emotions, talking about their emotions, it's not uncommon to develop a sense of kind of defensiveness, you know, if we're suffering, but we don't want to really accept that it has something to do with us. We might externalize that blame. It's other people's fault. And so I've always found it helpful that if I'm interacting with somebody that has kind of a defensive posture, to try to phrase things in a way that might get them to respond by saying something along the lines of, yes, you're right. Yes, that is how I feel. So for instance, it's not very helpful to say, I think you need some help. You've been a real jerk lately. That's gonna bring the walls up, increase the defensiveness and close them off further. But if you can say something more like you seem like you've been really frustrated lately, or you seem like you're, you know, really stressed lately. And if it could get someone to say, you know you're right, I have been then that's an opening, that's an opportunity to do some active listening to maybe even share some of your own vulnerability, and hopefully have more of an open conversation, which might ideally plant the seed that, hey, this talking thing makes me feel better. Maybe I should move on and do more of that with somebody who is trained in that.
Marcus Thorpe 19:14
Yeah. How about kids? You know, when my son had his his epilepsy situation. It didn't just impact me, it impacted the entire family, right? My older son, my son who had the seizure, who was like, what's going on? Now I'm scared, so we kind of started to get them into some mental health therapy sessions, just so that they could talk through their emotions. And I think it was really good. I think about my parents back, you know, when I was born in the 70s, and then growing up in the 80s, my mom has said to me, you know, there's plenty of times where she wishes she could go back and maybe have me talk to some people, or my brother too. What's your feeling on how we, you know, deal with mental health challenges with our kids these days?
Dr. Layne 19:55
Well, hopefully, as you kind of pointed out, a lot of the. People who, I think, have a stigma kind of perspective when it comes to mental health, grew up in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, and so my hope is that newer generations are more open to that idea. They have more access. You know, again, Internet has its double edged sword, but many people are exposed on social media to ideas they maybe wouldn't have been 2030, years ago. And of course, I don't think every child who's struggling necessarily needs a psychotherapist or a psychiatrist. Childhood is hard. It's stressful. What they need is for somebody to validate how they're feeling, to share their own feelings of insecurity and fear, to expose them to forms of education like podcasts and helpful YouTube videos, and then, of course, if necessary, to take the step to talk to the pediatrician, to use a website like psychology today to find a list of therapists who see children and who take your insurance and, you know, nip things in the bud before they become problematic in adult life.
Lindsey 21:17
Yeah, we're a big fan of around the dinner table at night, while we still have family dinners before everyone you know does activities and that sort of thing, we'll ask like, you know, who made you laugh today? To my son, you know, did anything make you upset today? Where the emotions actually steer the conversation. And a lot of that I consumed on social media, it's just part of my algorithm, part of my feed. So there's a silver lining there to all the content we consume. What value does a provider? I know Marcus kind of got into this a little bit, but for a provider and someone listening thinking, Oh, maybe, maybe this is my time. Maybe this is when I reach out for help and get the ball rolling. What questions should a patient be asking their provider to get the most out of that first visit?
Dr. Layne 22:07
And I'm not, I guess I'm not sure if you're talking about like a primary care doc or a mental health professional. Mental
Lindsey Gordon 22:12
health professional, yeah, yeah.
Dr. Layne 22:17
Well, fortunately, even if you're not sure what to say, you know, I often kind of start my first evaluation with a patient by just asking, you know, what are we here to work on? You know, what's been bothering you? What would you like to see change? And sometimes people come with a list, and sometimes people are not sure what to say. And so a good therapist or a psychiatrist, they're going to steer the ship if need be. They know the questions to ask. We usually start with kind of open ended questions. Let people talk about what's on their mind, and then from there, kind of start to narrow things down. You know, we ask questions about your functioning, your sleeping, your diet. You know, how your social relationships are going, how your work is going. We ask questions about symptoms, how long they've been present, what's the level of severity? Do they impact your functioning? And all of these things help to kind of feed into an algorithm that helps us understand, Okay, here's a working diagnosis that we're focusing on. Here are some ideas for treatment. You know, I want people to know that. You know, I've been in psychiatry for 20 years. I've been around many mental health professionals, and even though we might fear judgment, by and large, the people who go into this field are very compassionate, caring people who are not there to judge. They just want you to feel better, and they have experience at saying the kinds of things that can help you feel heard. So I think just getting your foot in the door and giving a mental health professional a chance, most people leave an appointment feeling much better than when they came in. I just have one more question
Marcus Thorpe 23:53
before we wrap this up, and again, we appreciate your time and insight on this, like it's a really valuable podcast for people to listen to or share with someone that you love, that you care about, because I do think there's a lot in here. What's the menu for people when they start a process with a counselor or with a psychiatrist, and maybe you take care of what you think is bothering you, how long should you continue that relationship? Is there a is there expiration date on going to see someone? Are you cured? Quote, unquote, when do you know that you've made progress?
Dr. Layne 24:28
Obviously, it depends on the circumstances and the person. There are people, unfortunately, who have severe mental illnesses, who, just like somebody with a cardiac issue, requires a cardiologist, maybe for their whole lives, there are people who see psychiatrists to maintain schizophrenia or severe bipolar disorder, but many people I meet, I meet once, I do frequent consultations where I kind of help a primary care physician come up with ideas. I give them my recommendations, and they manage things. From there, I. Many people see a psychotherapist for six sessions or 12 sessions, and work on a specific problem, and then when they feel better, that comes to an end, and maybe it remains open ended. Hey, you can come back and see us again if there's a problem. So it always depends, but there's no doubt that if people are feeling better, functioning better, have developed some insights and skills that will serve them in the future. It's not always an ongoing process by any means. Great.
Marcus 25:28
Well, Dr. Layne, thank you so much for your insight and your perspective on this important conversation. We appreciate it.
Dr. Layne 25:34
Happy to be here. Thanks a lot. Yep, and
Marcus 25:35
we want everybody to remember mental health is just health, right? You don't have to separate the two. It's just like being sick to your stomach or something's going on. Mental health is very much the same. So if you or you know someone who's struggling, we ask you, don't hesitate to seek help. There's a lot out there for you right now.
Lindsey Gordon 25:52
Absolutely, if you'd like more content like this, maybe check out our episodes on managing the mental load of a mom and others. You can find that in our wellness conversation in OhioHealth podcast, where you find your podcasts, or@ohiohealth.com
Marcus Thorpe 26:05
and@ohiohealth.com you're going to find links to get services that you might need to including our mental health and behavioral health space. And we'd like to continue the conversation with you. You can like favorite subscribe to our podcast, and we look forward to talking with you next time on the wellness conversation in OhioHealth podcast you.